John Echols & Mary Cave

What do we know about John Echols and Mary Cave? There is a ton of information available to those that are keen to search for it. However, it is my experience that there is as much, if not more, poor research out there as there is good or valid information.

Mary CAVE
Birth 5 Jul 1661 in Misterton, Leicestershire, England
Death 1752 in Lunenburg County, Virginia, USA

John ECHOLS Jr
Birth 1650 in Virginia, USA
Death 1712 in Lunenburg County, Virginia, USA

The first things to notice is Jr. for John. I've added that simply because his father is the one actually born in England in 1619 and arrived in Caroline County, Virginia in 1635. In Milner's history "John Echols an Englishman came to America about the end of the 16th or the beginning of the 17th Century and settled in Caroline County, Virginia...". I can find no record except the one below for a John Echols/Eckles/Ecles or any other variant spellings arriving in Virginia let alone Caroline County. I believe the "Englishman" is one generation further back than Milner is speaking of.  

“John Echols an Englishman came to America about the end of the 16th or the beginning of the 17th century.” Our John Echols, that married Mary Cave, was born in 1650 – the middle of the 17th century. I think the record below is in fact the "Englishman" John Echols and Milner is off by a generation.

John ECHOLS Sr
Birth 1619 in Wilmslow, Cheshire, England
Death 1680 in Old Point Comfort, Elizabeth City County, Virginia, USA

Name: John Ecles
Year: 1635
Age: 16
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1619
Place: Virginia
Source Publication Code: 6571
Primary Immigrant: Ecles, John
Annotation: Date of transportation order and intended destination.
Source Bibliography:                                       "PASSENGERS FOR VIRGINIA." In Genealogy: A Journal of American Ancestry. Edited by Lyman Horace Weeks. New York: William M. Clemens, vol. 1 (January 20, 1912), pp. 19-20; (February 10, 1912), p. 43.
Page: 43


Excerpt from a January 28, 2002, reply from Michael Wingfield Walker to an online query from Marine Fomby Jackson -- RG
Marine,

I admire that you try to help people, as you say thats what we are all here for. Yet I have seen so much misinformation on the Internet, where people simply state names dates relationships etc. as fact, without any supporting documentation, etc.

First, Elizabeth Travers Cave, whom you have as Mary Cave's mother, could not have been Mary Cave's mother. Mary was born ca 1670. However Giles Travers, Elizabeth Travers Cave's father, was born ca 1662 as proven by various records. Thus unless he was about eight years old when his grandaughter was born, an obvious impossibility, there is no way Elizabeth Travers was Mary's mother. (So no Kellogg, Waugh, etc. ancestry either).

Elizabeth Travers did marry a John Cave, but this John was probably a brother or nephew. Someone just saw Elizabeth Travers married a John Cave, and assumed this was the John cave who was supposedly father of Mary.

Second, you have John Echols, b. 1619 Grovesend. What is the source? I too think John who married Mary Cave was the son of an earlier John Echols in Virginia, but I have found no proof as of yet...As far as relationship, I too descend from John Echols and Mary Cave, through their daughter Ann who married George Marchbanks. I also descend from the Holcombes twice, which I think is another of your lines.

Also I descend from Jarvis Wingfield 1669-1756, who besides being very intimately related to the early Wynnes was thought to marry one, (tho no proof as of yet). (We probably have more lines in common the way families intermarry).

Source: http://genforum.genealogy.com/echols/messages/734.html


Mary (Cave) Echols was NOT dau of John Cave and Elizabeth Waugh! Parents unk.
Author: Michael Walker
Date: 15 Jan 2002
Surnames: Cave, Echols
Classification: Query

There must be tens of thousands and probably hundreds of thousands of people who descend from John Echols who married Mary Cave. And everywhere you look on the Internet, including many nicely designed websites, we have recorded that this Mary Cave was the daughter of John Cave and Elizabeth Travers, who herself was the daughter of Giles Travers and Ann Waugh. I accept the very very strong possibility that John Echols wife Mary was a Cave, based on their g-grandson Milner Echols's records as well as the many early Cave - Echols connections which he would not have known about. However, Milner also states Mary was the daughter of John Cave. This may be true, (or may possibly not be, a very early David Cave seems another possibility). Even if John Cave is Mary's father, however, it can't be the same John Cave who married Elizabeth Travers! Why? Many reasons, but a clear one is this. Mary (Cave) Echols birth date is not known, but she started having children in the late 1690's. So she was born probably ca 1670 maybe as late as 1680. Some records estimate 1674. Well, Elizabeth Travers's father, Giles Travers, was born ca 1662 proven by various records. So can someone explain to me how Giles could have had a grandaughter Mary Cave who was born when he was twelve years old? My personal opinion is that John Cave who married Elizabeth Travers, was the nephew or possibly even grand nephew of Mary Cave Echols. He could NOT have been her father. Please don't take this posting as confrontational. However it would be a great service if those many people who have posted on their webpages and elsewhere, the incorrect data that Mary Cave Echols' s parents were John Cave and Elizabeth Travers, would remove that incorrect data, and even contact other descendants they have (I realize unwittingly and with no malice) passed this mistake on to.

Reference: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~mysouthernfamily/myff/d0078/g0000088.html
Mary Cave's Mother:
Elizabeth ANDREWS
Birth Feb 1642 in Panborough, Somerset, England
Death 1671 in Stafford County, Virginia, USA

Mary Cave's Father:
John CAVE Sr
Birth 6 Feb 1644 in Misterton, Leicestershire, England
Death 8 Apr 1721 in Stafford County, Virginia, USA

John Cave was born 1644 in England, the son of Samuel Cave and Rachel Kellogg.

He was an importer of fine wines. He owned land in Stafford County.

He married 1st Elizabeth Andrews, daughter of George Andrews and had issue: Mary, John, William and David.

He married 2nd Elizabeth Travers, no children from this union.

John Cave and his son-in-law John Echols, sponsored settlers to come to Virginia by paying their transportation for which they received head rights for fifty acres.

1 comment:

  1. Is this John Cave the Farther of Benjamin Sr. Cave 1703. Could someone shed some light on this while am still in fair health. Benjamin is my 6th great grand farther.

    ReplyDelete

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